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Author Topic: 200Di" diesel conversion - how to do it...  (Read 4275 times)
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Autokaci
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« on: September 27, 2007, 02:40:52 AM »

"200Di" diesel conversion - how to do it

Developed for Series Land Rovers by Glencoyne Engineering...Yep did it again... :-*

This is not intended to be a comprehensive step by step instruction manual, but a guide which will help you with some of the trickier parts of the conversion.  To attempt this conversion you need a reasonable degree of mechanical ability and some common sense.  Working on old Land Rovers can be dangerous, especially if you use incorrect tools and unsafe working methods.  Make sure you carry out your own assessment of the risks at every stage of the conversion, and take whatever steps are necessary to minimise those risks.  I cannot carry out your risk assessment for you, and I cannot be held responsible if it all goes wrong and you end up in hospital or worse.

So, the first stage is to remove the battery, drain the cooling system and then remove the old engine as per the workshop manual.  You will find it helpful to remove the nearside front wing, although it is not strictly necessary.  Once the engine bay is nice and clear, remove the air cleaner bracket and then cut the battery tray off the chassis as in the photo below.  The battery will be relocated under the passenger seat.



Now you need to turn your attention to preparing the engine.  Firstly you need to strip any un-needed ancillaries - cooling fan, power steering pump, alternator, engine mounting brackets (keep the four large bolts to fit the new engine mounts), clutch and of course the turbocharger.  The turbo is held on with four nuts and studs which may be very tight - try heating them with a blowlamp if they will not undo.  There are also two oil lines (feed and return) from the turbo to the engine block which need to be undone before the turbo can be removed.  You should end up with something that looks like this:



The turbo oil feed and return lines need to be blanked off.  If you have access to welding equipment, you can just unscrew them from the block, weld a bolt inside the end to seal them, then refit them.  Otherwise you will have to hunt around for some suitably sized blanking plugs.



Round the other side of the engine, the oil filter housing has connections for an oil cooler.  We don't need that, so the filter housing has to be converted to 2.5 non-turbo spec.  Undo the two bolts in the end plate, withdraw the plate and remove the thermostat and spring.  Replace the plate, and then blank off the oil cooler connections with two Rover V8/200 TDi sump plugs (part number 603659) and copper sealing washers.



Now you can fit the clutch.  The 200 TDi flywheel will take the 9.5 inch Series clutch plate, with either the Series 2A (diesel) or Series 3 cover, so if the clutch from your old engine is in good condition you can probably swap it straight over.  If you are replacing a petrol engine in a Series 2/2A with the 9 inch coil spring clutch, you will need to upgrade to the 9.5 inch clutch.  Make sure the clutch plate is perfectly centred - I use an old gearbox input shaft for this job - worth paying a few quid for a scrap Series gearbox just to get this bit.  While you are in this area, there is a stud in the flywheel housing which needs to be removed (see photo below) and there may also be two steel dowels in the rear face of the flywheel housing.  These must be removed if present.  One of the dowels can be seen next to my thumb in the photo.  To remove studs, simply run two nuts onto the stud, then turn them against each other to lock them together.  If you turn the innermost nut anti-clockwise with a spanner, the stud should now unscrew from the flywheel housing.



Last job before fitting the engine is to sort out some engine mounts.  Assuming you have just removed a standard 2 1/4 petrol or diesel engine from your Landie, simply unbolt the mounts from this and bolt them to the 200 TDi block.  On the nearside there are two sets of threaded holes - use the front set.  Now you can fit the new engine (as per the workshop manual) using Series diesel engine mounting rubbers, or Defender 200TDi items.



Plumbing in your new engine will be fairly straightforward, provided you do things in a sensible and methodical fashion.  Starting with the alternator, you have several options.  If your old engine has a good alternator, simply remove the 200TDi alternator mounting bracket, and transfer the alternator complete with mounting bracket from your old engine.  You will need to substitute M8 metric bolts for the two which bolt the front face of the cast alternator bracket onto the engine block.  Alternatively you can bolt a Lucas 16ACR alternator straight onto the 200TDi bracket as shown below, but if you are using your Series alternator, the front plate will need to be rotated to put the adjuster lug in the right place.  In both cases you will need a military type double pulley (part 574870) to align the alternator belt with the water pump pulley, as in the photo below.  The final option is to use the Disco 200TDi alternator with a pulley from a VW Golf or similar. You need to measure the distance around the pulleys to find out what length fan belt you need.  The installation below uses a belt from a series 3 109 V8.



You can now go on to wire up the rest of the electrics.  How you do this will depend on the year and model of vehicle, and if I were to provide detailed instructions for every variant of Series Land Rover I would never find the time to get this page finished.  In all cases you will need to relocate the battery under the passenger seat and make up a clamp to hold it securely in place.  If you have the positive battery lead from the donor Discovery, this should comfortably reach from the starter solenoid to the battery in its new location.  The battery negative lead should be bolted direct to the engine/gearbox assembly, with an earth strap from the engine/gearbox to the chassis.  All the fixing points for this leads need to be nice and clean, and securely bolted.  Series 2/2A Landies had a battery tray under the passenger seat which should take an 069 battery, but if you do not have the battery tray, you will find an 073 will fit in the front LH corner of the underseat tool locker and will have plenty enough power to fire up the engine.



The alternator can be connected as per the Series 3 diesel wiring diagram (using the original wiring if you are converting a Series 3).  The starter solenoid wire (red/white) should connect straight to the solenoid on a diesel vehicle, but for petrol vehicles with a separate starter solenoid you will have to extend this wire.  For pre 1967 vehicles with a starter button, you can still use this to actuate the starter solenoid - just connect a positive supply to one side, and connect the other side to the spade terminal on the starter solenoid.

Being a fairly modern diesel, the 200TDi has an electrically operated stop solenoid, rather than a cable operated system.  If converting a petrol vehicle, simply extend the + wire which previously fed the ignition coil, and connect it to the stop solenoid.  If you are converting a diesel Land Rover with late series 2A or series 3 combined starter and glowplug switch, you will find that when the starter is operated it disconnects all the switched electrical circuits.  So you will need a 4 pin relay, which when actuated connects the glowplug feed to the stop solenoid (glowplugs are powered while the starter is operating).  The actuating feed for this relay should be from the red/white wire to the starter solenoid.  You will also need to identify a live switched feed (the + feed to the brake light switch is ideal) and connect this to the stop solenoid also.

Finally on the electrical front, you need to do something about the glowplugs.  Easy if you are converting a diesel as you already have a switch and wiring, but for a petrol vehicle you will need some kind of switch (a heavy duty push button will do fine).  You will find that, except in very cold weather, this engine should fire up easily without any need for glowplugs, but it makes sense to wire them up just in case they are needed.

Now on to fueling, cooling and exhaust systems:

 The fuel system is pretty simple.  If you are converting a diesel vehicle you already have almost everything you need.  For a petrol vehicle you will need to add a fuel return line - your fuel tank should already have a hole for this (blanked off) so it is just a case of obtaining the correct tank fittings and fuel return line.  You will also need a diesel filter.  The plumbing is simplicity itself - the feed line goes from the tank to the lift pump on the side of the engine.  From the lift pump fuel flows into the filter, and then to the injection pump.  The return line goes from the injection pump back to the tank.  The arm on the end of the accelerator pedal rod can be connected direct to the injection pump via a plain pushrod or, more elegantly, a ball-jointed rod, as per the photo below.



Cooling system - the heater can be connected up using 19mm diameter rubber cooling hose.  The 200TDi engine does not have a heater control valve, but this is no big deal.  Unless the heater fan is running, a Series heater will put out very little heat into the cabin.  You can use the standard Series radiator, but will need to make up some hoses.  One problem is that the diameter of the hose stubs on the engine is about 38mm, whereas on the radiator it is 32mm.  Halfords sell 'universal' flexible radiator hoses, some of which are 32mm ID at one end and 38mm at the other.  They are available in various lengths, but the only time I have used them so far was on a vehicle with a 6 cylinder radiator, so I cannot advise on what lengths are needed for a straightforward 4 cylinder conversion.  Alternatively you can make your own hoses using Series top and bottom hoses cut up and joined together with steel tube and jubilee clips.  This is how I did my first testbed vehicle, and that has now covered 6,000 miles with no problems.



Cooling fan - the Disco fan is in entirely the wrong place and will not fit.  In fact, you might as well cut the threaded stub off the end of the water pump and gain a bit more clearance between engine and radiator.  There is then plenty of room to fit an electric fan, BUT... I have never once had to use mine.  Not even in a 3 mile traffic jam, in hot weather, towing a trailer.  So unless you live in central London or are planning to use your vehicle to tow heavy trailers up long steep hills, you probably don't need a cooling fan at all.  These engines, connected to a Series radiator, run very cool - almost too cool.  In winter, a radiator muff would probably be a good idea, although I haven't yet tried one on mine.



Finally, the exhaust.  You can use the standard Series centre and rear sections, but you will need to fabricate a front pipe.  For this you definitely need welding skills.  I use an early, side-exit diesel exhaust, chopped up and connected using steel tube.  I make the system up on the vehicle, tack weld the joints, then take it off and seam weld it.  Note that you need to cut a hole in the LH inner wing to clear the exhaust pipe - it is easiest to make up the pipe before refitting the wing.



I clamp the square exhaust flange to the 200TDi manifold with the holes at 45 degrees to the turbo mounting studs, and use Series manifold clamps or thick washers to hold it in place,  It looks scruffy but seems to work well.  I also fit an extra support to the rear end of the front pipe - Halfords sell a universal exhaust hanger which does the job and bolts to the redundant left hand drive handbrake mounting bracket.



Finally there is the air filter to deal with.  On my first conversion I used a 90/110 filter housing bolted to the top of the timing cover, with a carb elbow and flexi hose from a Series 3 petrol engine to connect the filter to the air intake.  I connected the crankcase breather hose direct to the manifold, using a hole which is normally blanked off by a bolt (see photo below). This worked well, but 90/110 filter housings are hard to find, as the bottom half is welded to the chassis.



My second conversion used the Discovery air filter, connected to the air intake using a V8 carb elbow, with a stub connector for the crankcase breather hose, and a strap to tie down the air filter on top of the sound deadening pad.  There is just enough clearance under the bonnet for this to work, and it looks nice and neat.



In both cases I first cut off the end of the air intake, as it narrows at the outer end and I thought it might be a bit restrictive.  Make sure you stuff the intake with rag before doing this, otherwise you risk filling the engine with metal filings. It is also a good idea to cover the alternator with a cloth to prevent bits of metal from falling into it and shorting it out.



I think that's about it.  You should now have your very own 200Di.  I will add to these notes from time to time, and I would be very pleased to hear from anyone who attempts this conversion, and will try to incorporate feedback into these pages.

If on reading this you like the idea of this conversion but feel it is beyond your own abilities, I will be happy to quote you for the work.  A straightforward conversion, including second hand 200TDi engine fitted with a new timing belt and tensioners, plus all the other bits required, will probably be around £1,250 including VAT.

Further reading: Teri-Ann from the Series 2 Club is putting together some information on 200TDi conversions.  Her pages can be found at http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/200tdiconversionIntro.htm. The article by Glen Anderson (also Series 2 Club member), hosted by Teri-Ann, is especially useful - although it deals with a turbocharged installation, it covers some areas such as bellhousing, engine mounts etc in more detail than I have given above.
----------------------------------------------------o-------------------------------------------------------

I just hope that you have had the time to read all this.....I know it's long but I think it will be of interest to a few here!

 cheers_man

Kaci
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 03:20:17 PM by Wittsend » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2007, 09:41:20 PM »

I can't honestly see the point of putting in a cracking little engine like a 200 TDi and then removing the turbo and loosing 31hp.  The Series box in good condition can cope with 111hp it's not that hard to retain the turbo.

Several of my customers have carried out 200 TDi conversion with little trouble and minimum imput from myself, so have several members of this forum to quite a high standard and on other forums.  Its an interesting idea but I think it's a bit of a dead end, that's why Landrover dropped the 2.5 D.
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2007, 09:48:37 PM »

some folk are solely interested in economy, which this conversion pushes up a bit, without the need to upgrade brakes, or drive gently that the 200TDi needs.
Also, without the turbo, oil change intervals can be increased, and general reliability (less to go wrong)

also saves the expense of getting defender manifolds, or the heartache of chopping a chassis.

the 2.5D engine is still popular with folk into greenlaning, as it's bomb-proof.
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Chris (#1283)
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2007, 09:54:08 PM »

I think its a great idea and one I am giving serious consideration. Thanks for posting. Its one post I will be reading time and again.  cheers_man
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2007, 10:07:03 PM »

In the interests of fuel efficiency there are lots of Jap diesel engines which are a lot more environmentally friendly and have better fuel economy in various different capacities.  As for the drive train I'm putting 134hp through mine, it's a work vehicle and I don't have any problems, admittedly mine was the 6 cylinder to start off with so I have got the bigger brakes but if there in good condition it stops perfectly adequately.

Land rover six 2.6Ltr 86BHP@4500RPM 132lb ft @ 1500RPM

NADA 109s & Rover 110 p4 123BHP@5000RPM 142lbft@3000RPM

Rover P5 MKIII 3Ltr 134BHP@5000RPM 169lb ft @ 1750RPM

Defender V8 134BHP@5000RPM 187lbf tf@2500RPM

Stage 1 V8 90BHP'@3500RPM 166lbf tf@2000RPM max 5000RPM

All of these engines have been mated to Series boxes and numerous diesel ones with higher lb ft of torque and with good clutch control and competant driving shouldn't be a problem. (of course Perkins Diesels eat Series gear boxes).

As for the old 2.5 N/A diesel I've just got shot of my 110 Hicap with 303k miles on the clock, it was a good work horse but I would hardly call it economical.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 11:35:48 PM by IOE 6 3L » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2007, 10:12:44 PM »

Its an excellent proposition because as stated the 200 tdi is coming available for about £500  (disco version) and is ready to run with loads of mileage left.  The 2.5 turbo always had problems, the 2.5 na engine is a very good engine but is now over 20 years old so getting a sound engine is not easy and a thorough refurbishment will cost well in excess of the 200 tdi disco unit.
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2007, 10:35:09 PM »

Hi,
Its not the power its the torque that will kill the gearbox..........
Power = torque x speed, Diesel engines develop much higher torque than petrol engines at much lower engine speed therefore usually lower power.
I could go on and on but I'll stop now before I write an essay.
Colin.
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2007, 10:49:00 PM »

There are plenty of cheap Salisbury axles available that can handle the torque if you need belt & braces, in any case I would make the rear axle part of the overall project.  MY 2A  109"  with 2500 na has a Salisbury rear and it has received terrible punishment by me towing a heavy transporter trailer up very steep hills and as yet I have never used the bottom box.  I think a SWB would probably be better with 11" front drums, this with axle change would not increase the cost greatly.

regards
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2007, 01:20:06 AM »

Quote
I can't honestly see the point of putting in a cracking little engine like a 200 TDi and then removing the turbo and loosing 31hp.

First of all may I remind you that I did not do this write up, but simply copied it from the net!

Secondly, even though I tend to agree with you with regards the turbo, I see that the replies given by all the others here make sense and make this a perfect engine for a S2!

Quote
The Series box in good condition can cope with 111hp it's not that hard to retain the turbo.

Totally untrue...unless driven constantly at around 40MPH!!! Someone I know had fitted a 200Tdi into his 109" S3 utilising its original overhauled gearbox. He used to drive it to the limit and make use of all the 111hp the engine produced...but he was overhauling the gearbox every 3 months, and stopping it was a nightmare! Now it has an LT77 and a front disk brakes kit fitted and have had no problem whatsoever!

I remember him spinning all of it 4 wide wheels in 4WD, and when in 2WD it used to spin in all gears....1st, 2nd, 3rd and top!!!  :o Amazing power it had!!!

And like red says...investing in a Salisbury is a wise move as otherwise you'd be replacing driveshafts every day!!!

And the best way to avoid this is to remove the turbo...if left there....you are sooner or later going to be tempted to floor the pedal and.....yeah you guessed it...break something!!! nixweiss

 cheers_man

Kaci

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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2007, 10:11:55 AM »

I've had a TDi in my 2a ( which isn't driving at a constant 40mph) for 18 months now and haven't killed the gearbox ,standard axles or myself in that time . If your going to spin the wheels in every gear then it's expected your going to break something , a bit of common sense is needed to save the drivetrain.
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2007, 10:18:40 AM »

Swops - interesting.  Can you qualify this with  :-

a)  Road car Use.
b)  Tow tractor use.
c)  Enthusiastic green lane use.

The more information the better to build up the full picture of pros/cons of this conversion - what are your brakes and how do they perform ?

regards
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2007, 01:06:30 PM »

Swops - interesting.  Can you qualify this with  :-

a)  Road car Use.
b)  Tow tractor use.
c)  Enthusiastic green lane use.

The more information the better to build up the full picture of pros/cons of this conversion - what are your brakes and how do they perform ?

regards

a) Road car use.
The main reason for sticking in a TDi was to get more MPG's and it turns out the land rover is now faster so the best of both worlds . Getting even more MPG's when she was on the motorways last year going to Billing where you can sit in top gear with O/D for ages compared to the isles roads where your up and down the gears alot .

I tried her on the GPS for speed and 75mph was all she gave , but that was the pedal right down on the footwell , I'm sure it could give more speed if I sorted out the throttle cable but in the intrest of the drivetrain I've left it. Besides she was noisy enough at that speed.

b) Tow tractor use. Ok , admittely I don't do any heavy towing . Probably should have said that before and I would have to get the cooling sorted first before I felt comfartable doing any heavy towing .I know of another TDi series which the owner uses for towing and I think he hasn't broken anything , but I'd have to check .

c) Enthusiastic green lane use. There is no green lanes where I stay but I use the land rover for RTV's and haven't broken anything . I don't drive at maximum revs off road , I'd rather pick up a few penatly points in the RTV's than a broken axle. But depending on driving style you can break a half shaft with a 2.25 under the bonnet let alone a TDI.

Brakes , standard SWB set up .

The TDI came out of a defender , I don't know if they are any different power wise compared to a disco TDi, but the only thing different to the disco TDi was the need to move one engine mount. Once thats done everything falls in to place and the turbo mounted higher up on the defender TDi less problems with the exhaust . Standard defender alternator, pulleys and belt .

Probaly best to use the defender or disco cooling set up , it can fit in to a series front , bit of a squeeze but does fit . Although that was on head lights in wings series so don't know if it would fit with head lights between the wings . I went for the standard rad with the intercooler mounted up front which ran hot on the way down to billing , but it was a very hot day ,something that's rarely a problem in the isles !! But on the way back from billing it was a cooler day and the land rover ran cooler.

I do miss the near silence of the 2.25 petrol engine , but now she's lighter of the fuel , faster and start straight away from cold .
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2007, 03:19:30 PM »

I run a 200di conversion, very economical......power and speed? As Bentley would say when quizzed about outputs they would say adequate Sir! I can run her up easily to 65-70 if I wanted to and fuel consumption is fabulous. Quite noisy but my conversion went well.

For ease of installation with an eye on the future I bought a Steve Parker conversion and then made a jig to make up  to fabricate a connecting piece where the turbo would go. Cost me £40 from Bells silencers in Swindon (VERY good set up there)

I use the oil bath air filter (which I think is a great filter) and bracket bolted to the tabs which I left from the battery tray and the heavy duty original rad. Top hose connection: I used the original 2.25 thermostat housing made up a piece to blank off the heater hose off and place the thermostat bulb at the bottom. You'll need some M6 rod(from memory)  to fix this to the 200 tdi head. Bottom connection: I used a Samco reducing 90 degree silicon hose from Demon Tweeks to connect my original 2a rad (straight bottom connection).....not absolutely perfect but made of pretty tough stuff so should last.

Anyway....loads of other stuff but that was my solution to a few challenges!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 10:50:06 AM by MrTidy » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2007, 04:01:34 PM »

How economical is "economical" MrTidy?
I'm not so fussed about top speed,50-55's plenty when you drive a wagon anyway!!

With this new 2p fuel hike,better MPG is my main goal,I just had my injector pump overhauled by Cheltenham Diesels for £140,and they weren't overenthusiastic about my SVO use.  Knackers the seals they said.
(I know this is covered in another thread,I'm just tying the two together.)

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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2007, 04:32:51 PM »

Thanks Swops for your honest replies.  I am soon fitting a Defender 200 tdi into my Ex-MOD 90" (that presently has an incorrect 2286cc petrol fitted) - I will be leaving the turbo set up because I need all the power.  Looks like I will have to look in the mags for a lead acoustic blanket for the bulkhead and footwells etc.
I think this is one of the best threads on the S2 Club Forum for a while because if you want diesel economy and as explained by the original author the availability and price of these engines is very realistic.  With the non-turbo spec. it is a good choice for the majority.  I think this conversion is going to catch on in a big big way, all it now needs is the enterprise of a retailer to order a batch of front exhaust pipes to make the installation easier for the total novice.

regards
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2007, 07:00:40 PM »

Dont forget that the original article plus other contributions is allready pinned in the guide section at the top of this forum section.

As for the gearbox it depends how much of a nutter you are - just like the v8 you can break it if you spin the wheels but drive sensibly like you should with any engine and it will be ok
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2007, 07:03:44 PM »

Hi Geezer I've got a 88" 1969 with hardtop and galv roofrack on 7.60 Goodyear G90s' and I seem to be returning about 35mpg. I rarely go over 55 and I'm easy on the throttle. Mine apparently had 140,000 miles on the disco clock and all I've done is put a few injector treatments through the system. Little puff of smoke on start up and then clean as you like. Very very pleased as I used to get 12 with my badly worn petrol  :o

I'm interested in your visit to Cheltenham Diesels. What prompted you to go and what were the symptoms or was it just a sort of get it overhauled while it's out sort of thing?

I'd like to know if there was anything one could do to tune the system for specific use without the turbo (eg adjust the timing) to further improve economy and where I could go. I'm also wondering if use of an intercooler despite not using a turbo would have benefits. After all I've got a decent intercooler and a spare front panel to modify and fit in infront of the original rad.

Cheers Boris
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2007, 12:19:00 AM »

Quote
If your going to spin the wheels in every gear then it's expected your going to break something , a bit of common sense is needed to save the drivetrain.


You are obviously right.....in the case of this someone I know, he was still young in age and after upgrading from a very sluggish diesel engine to the new delight and power of the 200Tdi, which BTW was fitted using the Tdi radiator and intercooler, he used to be so happy with this new lease of power that spinning the wheels was a delight to him. This obviously stopped after the third gearbox overhaul he had to undergo!!!

One thing that makes me think is why you all say that the 200Tdi is a very noisy engine!!! OK compared to a 2.25 petrol I would agree but I have fitted a few 200Tdi's into 90's and 110's and drove them down to the silencer shop with just the cast short length of downpipe fitted. To be honest I was always amazed at how 'quiet' it is compared to other diesels! nixweiss
I had even helped in fitting a 200Tdi complete with LT77 gearbox, Tdi radiator and intercooler into a 109" S2A (lights in the mudguards) and I'm sure it had no soundproofing whatsoever added and it wasn't noisy at all. That sure did go fast....well over 75MPH for sure!!! :o

Quote
The TDI came out of a defender , I don't know if they are any different power wise compared to a disco TDi

According to technical specifications, the Disco Tdi 200 has a few more BHPs than the Defender one! :teacher

Quote
I am soon fitting a Defender 200 tdi into my Ex-MOD 90" (that presently has an incorrect 2286cc petrol fitted) - I will be leaving the turbo set up because I need all the power.  Looks like I will have to look in the mags for a lead acoustic blanket for the bulkhead and footwells etc.


Hi Red, I would strongly suggest that before investing in a lead acoustic blanket to check what soundproofing is issued as standard on the diesel defenders and that should be more than enough. If your Ex-MOD 90 was issued with a diesel engine, then you should have all the soundproofing you need already installed.

The pics attached are of what once was a S2, which has been converted to coils and a Defender body fitted to it. This Land Rover has been heavily modified and was in fact fitted out with a Nissan 6 cylinder diesel engine and Nissan gearbox mated to an L230 transfer box. These Nissans are quite silent and sound more like a Rover V8, but the PO fitted sound deadening all over...both outside and inside!!!! Now I have fitted a 200Tdi engine and gearbox out of a Discovery to it and since the sound proofing was already there....I left it there!!! I wouldn't have put it otherwise!





 cheers_man

Kaci
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redgr9
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« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2007, 12:41:55 AM »

Has anybody found any hydraulic engine mountings that can be incorporated,as used by such as Vauxhall & SAAB - rubber mountings are a bit ancient for noise and vibration reduction.

regards
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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2007, 12:52:14 AM »

Quote
Has anybody found any hydraulic engine mountings that can be incorporated,as used by such as Vauxhall & SAAB - rubber mountings are a bit ancient for noise and vibration reduction.

Red, like I already told you, they aren't necessary, but if you insist, what about the ones used for Td5 engines??? They are a bit on the expensive side though!!

 cheers_man

Kaci
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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2007, 10:44:44 AM »

My reasoning is this  -  the original author  Glencoyne Engineering, described the downside of the 200 tdi in comparison to earlier series diesels is that it is noisier because it direct injection. We all know the Ricardo designed early diesel indirect head was - well quite quiet.  There are plenty of Disco's local to me and to my observation they all have this raw diesel engine sound, and it is generally accepted by all that they are a good but noisy engine.   I must admit that I did one almost but a Disco with a 200 tdi (it was a good example - all docs. proving genuine 40K mileage) - however I did not buy due to the alarming Rock and Roll when cornering.
My ex-mod Defender (VIN.  SALLDVAC7AA309567)  was first registered  1999 and according to an old MOT test certificate (issued 2001) it was fitted with a 2550 diesel engine and this would have been the 2.5 na.  I have had this Landra quite a while and have not had time or inclination to history check - so do not know factory build date, I will probably only take an interest when I get to fitting the 200 tdi.

The point I am trying to make is this  Defender factory fitted with a 2.5na will not have sound deadening anywhere near the standard of one fitted with a 200 tdi.

Your input is greatly appreciated because I have been a Lightweight petrol head for well over 30 years.  I am not the greatest lover of coil springs but my requirement is maximum power from a sensible traditional mechanical diesel.  I understand my choice is limited to either 200tdi or early 300 tdi (without black box electronics).  I have decided that for towing I am better with this power onto tarmac with permanent 4 x 4 drive.
At the present time I am just collecting all info. available to enable me to make a tidy installation, I will have to look into the mountings you suggest because regardless of extra cost if they are no big problem to fit then they will be worth the money.

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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2007, 11:09:34 AM »

I can't honestly see the point of putting in a cracking little engine like a 200 TDi and then removing the turbo and loosing 31hp.  The Series box in good condition can cope with 111hp it's not that hard to retain the turbo.

I can see a lot of reasons you might do this. Cost and simplicity being the main ones. If you keep the standard set up you need the intercooler to keep the induction temperature down and an oil cooler as turbos dissipate a lot of waste heat into the lubricating oil.
If you only need say, 70bhp, for the sort of use your vehicle gets then why make things more complicated than necessary? If you think of the 200Di as a high-economy version of the 2.5 NA, then you're thinking along the right lines. This conversion isn't for you if your reason for fitting a different engine is that you want more acceleration or the ability to maintain 60mph with a heavy trailer behind even on inclines or into a headwind. The majority of people run relatively light 88" Series vehicles that are either not used for towing, or only tow occasionally or only with a relatively light (under 1 ton) trailer - the sort of thing used to lug bits about or take stuff to the tip.
What a direct injection non turbo Di unit gives you is inherent reliability since internal engine temperatures and pressures are way below the design limit of the engine and the high thermal efficiency gives you a much lower heat rejection into the cooling system which then operates with a lot of "headroom" thus minimising the chance of overheating. Derated engines properly maintained have the potential for an enormous lifespan, even if the engine has already gone round the clock when fitted. Compared to the cost of doing a proper ; i.e Turner Engineering quality style overhaul on a tired 2.5 NA unit, the Tdi stripped of all its non-essentials as a reliable workhorse unit for Series Land Rovers makes perfect sense to me.
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2007, 03:14:47 PM »

I too have been following this thread with some interest.
I run a swb 2 ¼ petrol with lpg conversion. At present I get 17mpg on lpg (eq to 34mpg on petrol) and can run 60mph on the flat. (checked with gps)

I do however need to tow quite heavy trailers, so I’ve been recently been giving this some thought. My swb is a daily working vehicle and has to cover some considerable mileage too (done 1500miles in the last 3 weeks)

From what I can gather, with any conversion, you have to think about things like engine mounts, exhaust systems, cooling etc. As a fan of wanting to keep things simple, I have been considering upgrading the present engine with some of the ACR ‘power plus’ stuff. (inlet manifold,su carb, flowed head etc) ACR stuff


The advantage of this is that the engine is more or less just the same, just with a bit more ‘grunt’. I’ve even heard of these being bored out to 2.8 litre. I realise these can be quite expensive, but maybe cost effective in the long run, as the vehicle doesn’t have to be off road while the ‘conversion’ is being fitted. Then it can go back out again, earning money.  :chainsaw

Any thoughts gratefully received  cheers_man

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geezer
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2007, 07:12:37 PM »

MPG figures look good MrTidy,much better than my low 20's!! :-X

Cheltenham Diesel were recommended to me by Lucas in Bristol Road.   (Incidentally,Lucas have been great to me in the past,fixing two major 'leccy faults on cars,and easy on the wallet too.) :em

Anyway,keeping to the plot. My injector pump was spewing out fuel from the throttle actuator thingy
at the top,(can you tell I don't know much about Diesels?)
Lucas wanted me to remove the pump and they'd send it away,Cheltenham Diesels do the job with the pump in situ!! Result!! woohoo
I needed it back in a hurry as it's my daily drive,so I left it overnight and they sorted it.
The parts,about 15-20 'O' rings and a couple of gaskets were only about £35,the rest was labour and VAT.
I'd have a go myself next time,especially as it can be done with the pump on the engine,don't suppose it's easy,but as I own Minis and am married,I fear nothing!!

I've also replaced the fuel pump as it was leaking from the priming handle,the actuator arm was extremely loose and was pumping very weakly,almost fortnightly!! :D

It's all running fine now.
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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2007, 09:28:21 PM »

Thanks for the info Geezer. Great to know there's someone local who specialises in the case of problems. I know exactly where the Lucas place is as I used to row just down from there. I might pop my injectors along to Cheltenham Diesels to have them checked out.....normally it's free to check and you pay to have them adjusted.

I'm thinking of using the intercooler I've got hanging around along with a discreet ram air system to try and help the figures further....may or may not work but it'll be fun trying. Important thing to me is that on the outside it remains original Series 2 so it would have to be hidden.

Good luck with the engine. I used to have a white mini van when I was a kid, straight thru exhaust and 1300cc engine...brilliant fun.

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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2007, 09:38:53 PM »

I too have been following this thread with some interest.
I run a swb 2 ¼ petrol with lpg conversion....... I have been considering upgrading the present engine with some of the ACR ‘power plus’ stuff. (inlet manifold,su carb, flowed head etc)
Any thoughts gratefully received  cheers_man

Personally, for the sort of mileage you're doing, I'd fit a Tdi and possibly leave it as a turbo engine if the power is really needed. The ACR kit is unlikely to give you any improvement in low speed torque which is what you want for lugging a trailer around. Stretching a 2 1/4 to 2.8 litres is taking things too far, IMHO. The 2.5 Factory engine is as large as is sensible with 4 cyls if you like the engine to remain refined. As it is, the longer stroke 2.5 unit is already less well balanced than the 2 1/4.
The beauty of the standard engines is the parts are readily available and relatively cheap. If you blow up something on an ACR modded engine, what's it going to cost you to fix it? And will you be able to get stuff off the shelf immediately so you can get the thing on the road earning it's keep? You may also find elements of the ACR set up, such as a free-flowing air filter, are completely at odds with the ideal set up for an LPG system - which requires some pressure drop in the induction tract in order to work properly.
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« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2007, 12:55:40 AM »

Quote
VIN.  SALLDVAC7AA309567


This makes it a 1984 model (the red marked A indicates that) issued with a 2.5L 4 cylinder diesel NA, so your easiest and most straightforward fit is the 200Tdi.
The 300Tdi complete with R380 gearbox would require some modifications to fit properly to a pre-300 90/110 as you will need a 300 seatbox and flooring, preferably even the bulkhead so that the wiring loom and all gauges will match! The 300 propshafts would also be needed. Then all you have to do basically is fabricate the new engine mounts on the chassis. Please note that it is important to get the original R380 chassis crossmember as well! Oh yes it would be necessary to modify the slam panel as well to be able to fit the top radiator brackets. I know it may sound easier to simply replace it with a 300 one as well, but then you will realise that you would have to do some modifications to the bonnet rests and bonnet pin needs to be out of a 300 as well as it is thinner. Oh and even the two reinforcing 'rods' from under the bonnet lock to the mudguards need to be replaced with 300 ones as the original ones would foul up!!! You would also need a 300 bonnet stay and bracket.
Some pics attached to understand better!

Original old bonnet buffer removed


Nutserts fitted instead and 300 bonnet pin fitted


Safety catch fitted


300Tdi Bonnet stay bracket


300Tdi bonnet stay


On the other hand the 300 + R380 can be fiited using the original seatbox but you would have to start by fitting the gearbox crossmember in place of the old crossmember so that the gearlevers come just about right in the tunnel opening - I usually trim about a 1/4" from the tunnel (seatbox side) so that the tunnel moves slightly back and the gearlevers sit much better and freely. Then the new engine mounts on chassis fabricated. This set up will move the whole assembly forward with the fan just about an inch away from the PAS box.
Then you can also fit the 300 to the LT77 you have...still comes good...but you'll be missing the lovely gear changing offered by the R380!!!

If by the black box electronics you mean the EGR system, then don't let it bother you at all as it can simply be eliminated while still having the benefit of a much modern low mileaged engine. The EGR system can be easily removed and the opening it leaves be simply blanked off by its special gasket and a blanking plate which is available from parts shops. The connections etc that are on the fuel pump can be left there as they will become redundant like this!

Some pics to help understand:

300Tdi Egr system #1


300Tdi EGR system #2


With regards to the sound deadening fitted to 200 Tdi Defenders: this shouldn't be such a problem for you as I'm sure if you visit a couple of Land Rover breakers, I'm sure you would be able to get all you want for a few bob!

I have been informed that the Td5 hydraulic engine mounts cost around £70 each new!!! Wow!!! The problem here would be that you would also be needing the Td5 chassis mounts and the matching mounts off the engine!!! I have never done this so I cannot be much help here! nixweiss If I were I would not bother though...the original 200/300 mounts work a treat!

 cheers_man

Kaci
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« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2007, 01:02:39 AM »

Quote
I have been considering upgrading the present engine with some of the ACR ‘power plus’ stuff. (inlet manifold,su carb, flowed head etc) ACR stuff

If you are after fuel economy then fitting ACR stuff will keep you more or less the same as you are now....unless you will be happy with the power increase and start flooringthe pedal. Roland of ACR is a good friend of mine and I have had a taste of the power he managed to get out of our little engines....impressive is the only word! His kits are ready prepared for LPG, but I'm not sure about the low speed torque. But Roland is a very nice to talk to person so why not give him a call and put forward your questions. I'm sure you'll get the answers you're after.

 cheers_man

Kaci
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surferjim
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« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2007, 08:16:48 AM »

thanks for your input.....sorry if it's been a bit of a  hijacked

Quote
If you are after fuel economy
not really, i think i've got it about as good as it gets. I'll give Roland a ring.

Thanks crashbox. I wasn't going to rush out and buy a 2.8 (havn't got a spare £3000  :hehehe) but was considering flowed head,carb that would just bolt on in a day. Have already got a freeflow air filter and seems to work fine. (oil bath elbow rubbed on the bonnet as 2" gas adapter on top of carb)
I do however see your point about a 20tdi, but
(a) i don't want things blowing up
(b) this would need to be fitted fairly quickly, as it's a working vehicle. (maybe have to pay one of you guys to fit it for me  ;) )
(c) would need to price it up realistically.
(d) economy would be more or lees the same

and are 200tdi's noisier than a 2 1/4?  :earmuffs


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« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2007, 08:32:16 AM »

Thanks for the sound info. again Autokaki, I will have to read all of this over a few times to take it all in.
--------------
The 90" was a first venture onto coils and I bought it mainly as a MOD collectable and for its very straight body and sound chassis but it had the wrong engine and as much as I like the 2000 na I went the 200 tdi purchase way.  Later I decided I would like the later axle/brake set up - more work and money - so I decided to cut my losses and just fit the 200 tdi and use it. I had come to the conclusion that it was better to just buy a new galvanized chassis and scratch build up, to date I have a brand new front axle, bulkhead, doors & front panels.  Now you have enlightened me on the engine mounts and all the differences with the 300tdi then I am thinking it may be easier to obtain a much later front end write off to obtain a good tub. I am thinking the hydraulic mounts and corresponding chassis etc. is the way to go.
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