Stainless steel braided brake hoses - fitting

[mepham55]

I ordered a set of SS goodrich flex lines for my Rover and have a few questions for those of you who have fitted them.
I own an early 1967 SWB. When I bought my truck it did not have the old flex lines in place so I need to know which way to attach them. In the pictures below I figure the top 2 are for the front brake cylinders and the bottom line is for the rear to the axle 3 way connector.

My question is why are there so many lock nuts? Is this if your fitting them to a Series 3? I realize I need the lock nuts for where the lines pass through the frame mounts but do you also use them at the cylinder end? Shouldn't there also be copper washers for where the lines connect to the cylinders? Don't you also need lock washers for the frame mounts?

For the Rear Line, does the end with the copper washer connect to the 3 way bronze fitting on the rear axle?

Sorry if this should be obvious but I just want to be sure I fit these the right way around the first time.
Matt
,,

[Devon2a]

Hello.

so many questions so many answers.. are you ready?  :teatime

Which is which? Yes you are indeed right the top two are for the front, and the bottom one is the one that goes to the 'T' piece. and yes the shorter end with the copper washer on is the end that goes into the 'T'.

why all the lock nuts? well one end as normal so will use a locknut where it goes to the mount on the frame. but first start at the cylinder end. Keep the lock nut on and hand screw in the hose untill it is tight. Then just nip it up with a spanner. Then bring the lock nut down and use that to tighten up against the cylinder. Again just give it enough just to be tight. Should they leak then you can always tighten them a bit more.
Once you have done the cylinder end then you can do the frame end. As stainless hose's don't have any twist in them.

Copper washers, Where do they go?
On this set there is only copper washer for the rear hose that goes into the rear 'T' piece. What is different is that there isn't any need for the washers on the front ones as this job is done by the locknut.

HTH.

Rowan.

[5988]

i thought id read on here, that you shouldnt screw them into the cylinders, and were suposed to attach them through a bracket on the swivel housing, then a short piece of sopper pipe to the cylinder , hence the lock nuts on each end as they would go through 2 brackets

could be wrong , but might be worth checking

[RichardB 790]

Sorry, but I'm going to disagree strongly on this one.  I've only ever fitted the standard rubber hoses, but they are fitted as follows, and I would expect the fancy stainless Goodrich hoses to fit exactly the same way.

From memory, all three hoses should be the same as regards the unions on the end of the hoses.  Each hose should look like the bottom one in your picture.  The only difference between them might be the length of the hose.

The ends with the copper washer should screw directly into either the wheel cylinder or the 'T' piece on the rear axle.  The copper washer provides the seal.
At the other end, the hose should be routed to the bracket on the chassis, and the end passed through the hole in the bracket, and the hole should be attached to the bracket by fitting the lock nut and tightening.  The hose itself should have just enough twist in it to make it bend away from any obstacles that it could come into contact with.  The metal pipe is the fitted to the end on the hose at the bracket.

This is the way in which SWB IIa's have always been plumbed in from my experiences.

Later vehicles do have a short metal pipe from wheel cylinder to a bracket, similar to the one on the chassis, but mounted on the swivel housing somewhere. In which case you would be able to use the hoses you have, exactly as '5988' has described.  As it stands, you'll need to get hold of the little brackets to fix to the swivel housing, and the short pipes to connect cylinder to the hose.

It might be that the Goodrich hose are intended for use with parabolic springs and where a 'body lift' has been done.  In this case, there might be good reason for having the hose mounted differently, to prevent thier contact with moving parts under the vehicle as the steering and suspension moves.

And sorry Rowan, but your method of connecting the hoses to the wheel cylinders is totally incorrect, and probably highly dangerous.   What ever you do, do not fit the hoses to the wheel cylinders as suggested.  They won't seal to the wheel cylinder, and the incorrect fitting at the cylinder end could ruin the wheel cylinder.  The lock nut does NOT form the seal as suggested. The seal is made either with the copper washer, when the correct hose is fitted, or by the conical shaping of the copper pipe inside the cylinder fitting.  :-\

[estwdjhn]

Richard is correct here, that kit is for a SIII, and the hoses in that kit are not intended to screw directly into your wheel cylinders. I could be wrong, but I supect that they won't anyway, the thread size probably being larger.

[detrirus21]

They will screw into the cylinders. I've heard different reports about whether or not they shopuld be screwed directly into the cylinders. Some people say its dangerous some people say its fine. I'm fitting some and I don't know so we shall see

[estwdjhn]

understanding how they are meant to seal, its not a risk I'd want to take - just remember that a failure here will leave you totally without brakes...

A better plan might be to find the brackets off a dead SIII axle, and use them.

[detrirus21]

My plan was to find brackets and I know where there may be some

[mepham55]

Thanks for all the replies. Sounds like there are differing opinions here. So has anyone had these fitted and actually had a brake failure by fitting them straight into the cylinders?

I've run a search and found this topic discussed before and I have to say I would prefer the lines to fit safely. Some people have even contacted Goodrich and have been told that it is fine to screw the lines stright into the cylinders. Surely the company that manufactures the lines would test this, as I would think they would be liable?

So does anybody know where to get these brackets and hard pipes from? Can you order them, or should they just be made up? Parts are not as easy to find over here.

Thanks,
Matt

[RichardB 790]

It is perfectly OK to screw the hoses directly into the cylinders, providing you have the correct type of union on the end of the hose for screwing direct to the cylinder.  The hose at the bottom in your picture, would be OK to screw direct, the other two will need the brackets and short adaptor pipes.

To be honest, I would return the two 'front hoses' you have to Goodrich and get them replaced with the correct hoses for a IIa.  The hoses you have are for a late Series III, or even a coiler, which used the brackets and short rigid pipes!  They can supply you with the correct type of hose, as the third hose you have is the right sort.  For a IIa, all the hoses should be the same.

[Devon2a]

Well i await certain brake faliure then and to crash into a large immovable object and to spontaneously combust into a huge fireball.   :hehehe


For the record Jemima and Sally have Goodridge braided hose's fitted as i have done above. They are the proper series 2 (imperial) set as that can be brought from such places like Paddocks and Merlin motorsport. In the past months and combined thousands of miles put on both systems and the work they do there hasn't been any leaks and the systems have performed faultlessly.

But...

Hey ho all info is given out of the goodness of my heart and up to you to believe it and act on it. Do what feels right for you. 

[Metalkoi]

Mine go straight to the cylinder and i have had no problems,but know you've gone and got me thinking

[Devon2a]

Well taryn is on his way home from work. Perhaps i should phone him and say he's gonna die a gory death.  :D    :-*

[Mr. Pickles]

I have the +2" Goodridge hoses with Parabolics on Pickles, they screwed straight in to the cylenders! I thought that they wouldn't, so bought the brackets at the same time!  :D I tried to make it all fit, but found that the connections were wrong, so tried screwing into the cylenders and it worked!  :em I had to stand on the pedal, with caravan, weighing over a ton, when Fruitcakes tyre blew on the way back from the international. I have never had to brake that hard before and was greatley impressed that I didn't run into the back of their new caravan!  :o

I have the brackets somewhere if anybody needs them!

Paul.

[Sunny Jim]

I'm with RichardB on this one, the 'long end and locknut' should not be screwed directly into the cylinder. Those that have done it successfully have probably done so because the soft alloy cylinders will probably seal in a similar way to a copper washer. Cutting the end off the fitting is not a good idea either as you can't guarantee getting all the metal bits out afterwards.

I would send them back and explain to the supplier what ends should be fitted for a Series 2. The Goodridge catalogue is available online and contains a staggering range of fittings and adaptors - I had front hoses made specially for my Santana disc setup, but went through Automec as Goodridge don't sell directly (apparently). Hopefully they can send the correct hoses in future for Series 2s!

Sunny Jim

[Mr. Pickles]

Mine didn't have those ends on! If they had I could have fitted the brackets and short pipes. They were also supplied with several copper washers, not the one ^^^^^^^^.

Paul.

[Sunny Jim]

Mine didn't have those ends on! If they had I could have fitted the brackets and short pipes. They were also supplied with several copper washers, not the one

Then you probably have the correct ones, that means that Matt has either ordered, or been supplied the wrong set for the vehicle.

Sunny Jim

[mepham55]

I've sent an email off to *addocks to question just what set I have, according to their website and goodrdiges website I ordered the only set available for 1960-1980 SWB Landys?

I've been playing with the brake lines and my camera and here's what I've got:
The three main ends I'm dealing with: top standard Land rover flex line Part#3386, middle goodridge SS line, bottom Automec's copper/nickle end


The original Landy line thread is not long enough to make contact to the nipple inside the three way union?

The Goodridge line is too long, but at least would seal against the nipple, albeit it's a male to male connection:


Shouldn't the original Land rover, flat ended flex line be butted up tight to the three way union castings?

Next saga the front cylinder connections.

 As you can see the front brake cylinders also have male castings:

So the goodridge lines will definately not seal well as they are also male and very long:


The only connection that remotley makes sense is the one end of the Goodridge line and the Automec line, even though I know this is supposed to go into the three way union it doesn't even come close to being long enough and it won't work here because the thread is no where near long enough once you add the frame mount!


So I know I've got the wrong set, but I'm not even sure how the the original lines would work :bang

Now I wiat....... :zzz
Matt

[RichardB 790]

The connections to the 'T' and the cylinders should be made with the bits as in this picture:



BUT there should be a copper washer in this joint, which is what forms the seal between the hose union and 'T' or cylinder.

The other ends of the hose, which as I stated above, should be the same and in all three cases are routed to a bracket on the chassis, which the end of the hose passes through, and is secured with the nut and locking washer.  You should end up with a male end of the hose exposed ready for the rigid pipe to connect to, like this:

 
The chassis bracket should be between the hex on the end of the hose and the nut.  Ignore the 'T' on the right in this picture.

The exposed male end of the hose should then be connected to the rigid pipe, which should be terminated witha female flare and nut like the one on the left in this picture:




What happens in all of these joints is the soft metal of the washer (hose to cylinder/'T'), or the end of the pipe (female flare) deforms to form the seal between the two components.  Ideally the copper washers should be annealed (a softening heat tratement) before fitment.

The connections should look like this for the chassis end:



and this for the cylinder end:



Sorry the photos aren't as clear as they should be, but this is a real live Land-Rover we're looking at!


What has been suggested is that the male end of the hose is screwed into the cylinder, so that you end up with the male/male tapers facing each other, and then the lock nut is tightened onto the cylinder.  This will only form a seal by deforming the relatively soft material of the cylinder to make some form of seal.  Whilst the advocates of this method may have managed to get the joint to seal, this is extremely bad practice, and it is relying purely on the tightness of the threads joining the cylinder to the hose to form a seal.  DON'T DO IT!

[mepham55]

So I have decided to order the S3 style brackets and short pipes to fit these lines. Hopefully that will work. My last question on this matter is the connection for the rear 3 way piece.
This end:


Goes to the 3 way fitting on the rear diff. It seems to me the new pipe is: 1) not long enough to contact the 3 way fitting internals and 2) also creating a male to male end?

Is the S3 SWB rear axle 3 way brake fitting the same as a S2a?



Thanks for all your replies. The rebuild slowly continues!

Matt

[RichardB 790]

The protruding end of the hose shouldn't contact the internals of the 'T' piece.  The seal is made by the copper washeraround the hose end.

As far as I am aware, the rear axle 'T' pieces are the same on Series II, IIa and III, and there probablt a common component on many British built cars with a live rear axle of the same era as the Land-Rover.

I would say the the threaded end of the hose in this picture looks to be far too course to be a 3/8" UNF thread, and the threaded part isn't very long!


This is what I would expect the end to look like, but it should have a copper washer on it!

[Wittsend]

I agree with Richard's analysis....for what it's worth.... 

[Dopey]

Be good to stick this in the service section for future reference

[1scc1]

I went through this saga some time ago.  I came to the same conclusion that the hoses had the wrong end fittings for screwing directly into the front wheel cylinders.

I contacted Goodridge who said that it was ok to screw the hoses directly into the front wheel cylinders and they should seal.  However, I agree with Richard that this is bad practice and was not willing to use them.

Although Goodridge said the hoses were ok to use they were happy to exchange them so I returned the hoses to Goodridge and they made up a set with the correct fittings that seal with a copper washer.

Steve

[RichardB 790]

Although Goodridge said the hoses were ok to use.....

....Which surprises me, as they ARE a recognised 'sensible' supplier of replacement braking components!

I returned the hoses to Goodridge and they made up a set with the correct fittings that seal with a copper washer.

It's a shame that they couldn't supply hoses with the right fittings for the application that they were going to be used on when originally ordered!  OK this could be an error on the part of the customer (ordering parts for the later models, and not the correct IIa ones) but if you ask for hoses to fit a standard Land-Rover Series IIa, they should be able to supply the correct replacement part(s) for that vehicle.

The moral(s) to this saga:

1.  Please make sure you are supplied with the correct replacement part for the application that you intend to use the part for, especially where safety critical parts are concerned. 
2.  Double check with the supplier if 'alternative' parts are supplied.
3.  If you're fitting the parts yourself, YOU become responsible, not just for making sure you fit the correct parts, but also for making sure the parts are fitted correctly.  There is usually a leaflet supplied with parts especially braking components that details what your responsibilities are.  This is often something that simply gets thrown in the bin, but I have taken the time to read them!