Series 2 timeline - milestones in production

[Wittsend]

As it says, a comprehensive, but by no means exhaustive list of all the revision and model changes through the life of the Series 2.

Series 2 Timeline


I (we) are not claiming this is wholly accurate...some factory records were/are quite vague.

For more info visit HERE

 :skip

[MrTDiy]

Fantastic.....thanks Alan

 :bowl Boris

[geoff]

Thanks to all involved a most informative and useful document.    :teacher :1st :teacher

[crashbox]

Interesting. I've seen the Ottawa Valley document before and combined with the other info, it's very informative.
One thing though that I've never seen published that would be VERY useful, would be the highest chassis number reached for each model type/year variant during the Series 2/2a/2b production era. For example, if the last 1961 Home RHD petrol 88" produced was 141104825 say, it would be a handy indicator for anyone with a similar vehicle to see where their particular one fits in the production run. We get loads and loads of Forum questions from people who've just acquired a new Two and are seeking and indication of it's build date. I know the definitive answer is "ask Gaydon", but a table of year, model variants, and highest numbers reached would be immensly useful in painting a picture of how many of what type and when they were built! A difinitive total of the whole population of 2/2a/2b vehicles produced could also be gleaned from this, along with a pretty good indicator of the percentage of vehicles sold here or exported by adding the respective Home and Export chassis numbers over the years.

[crashbox]

Thanks to The Beast 233 for some very useful Series 2 information. It was exactly what I was talking about.

[The Beast 233]

No trouble Crashbox.
Glad to be of service to you. You would be surprised what info is in the Club Archives.
Just wish more would ask.

[wolfie]

hi, is it possible that one of the rather more computer litterate members could come up with a database, so we could all enter our chasis numbers, and it would automatically place it in order of build and we could all see things like month of build, year of build etc ?  just a thought,but it would be good.

[estwdjhn]

No, sadly it isnt.
 
Landrover building was very sporadic and random, and so the point in sequence that any given vehicle was built can be hard to pin down from the chassis number. The only definative source is Gaydons achive book, which was filled in as each vehicle was produced.

The nearest software is CalVIN

put your vin in, and it will tell you all that can easily be deduced.

[Autokaci]

hi, is it possible that one of the rather more computer litterate members could come up with a database, so we could all enter our chasis numbers, and it would automatically place it in order of build and we could all see things like month of build, year of build etc ?  just a thought,but it would be good.

I guess what wolfie is trying to say is something like the world renowned jeep site G503 has. Check their site,
http://www.g503.com/ , out and go to Serial Numbers, http://www.g503.com/serial-numbers/, to see how they wroked this out.
I for one find it very useful and practical!

 

Kaci

[Mark Rumsey 00623]

Not the same thing. The G503 site seems to list them by date entered onto the list, not by date of manufacture. It would be quite easy to do a list of vehicles like the G503 site, but it wouldn't tell us much.

As John said, the way Rover produced vehicles means that it is not possible to put them into build date order from the chassis number. The reason is quite simple. Chassis numbers were allocated sequentially when ordered and the build cards prepared with those numbers. The first job on the line was to tie the build card to the chassis and stamp the number. In theory this meant vehicles entered the line in numerical order, but this wasn't guaranteed. Sometimes the cards were out of order, sometimes the man stamping the numbers turned the pile of cards over before picking them up because he found it easier to work that way, putting that batch on in reverse order, and sometimes the cards were simply out of sequence anyway. So, the vehicles were not necessarily in sequence when they started down the line. Second, adjacent vehicles on the line could be to completely different specs requiring different parts, and if one got to a stage on the line where the parts were not available, it would be taken off the line and sat to one side until those parts became available, whilst the rest of the vehicles carried on down the line. Third, some vehicles sustained damage whilst they were being built and had to be pulled off the line to be repaired before they could continue. And finally, in some cases it would be found that remedial work to fix a recently discovered problem might be needed. In most cases this would be incorporated into the affected part before it was fitted to a vehicle, however those already too far down the line to be dealt with this way would be pulled off and rectified before continuing (this is why when the Sultan of Bruneii asked for the first Range Rover off the line when production started in 1977, he got chassis number 27 as the first 26 needed remedial work to the back brakes to cure a squealing fault). As a result, it is unlikely vehicles left the lines in the correct order in batches greater than about 15 or 20 and also explains why Series 2 chassis no413 left the line 6 weeks before chassis no3. The only way to put them in correct date order would be to cross reference them with the production legders held at Gaydon, and that's not something that could be easily done with an online database.

[mudruffin]

I like this due to the fact that it points out to me that my landrover is a bitza. I have a 1968 by the paperwork but i have things from 1966 and others from 1969 but i love it.

one thing i am interested in is does anyone know where the steel chassis came from in 1968 or more to the point did  the steel itself come from Scunthorpe.

[redgr9]

Reference  -  The Land Rover  Workhorse of the World by Graham Robson  (first published 1976)  page 95  quote  :-

For most versions, British Leyland make their own frames, near the centre of Birmingham, in Garrison Street.

etc. etc.
When Rover took the place over in 1965, massive reconstruction was needed.
Today, on three floors, nearly 800 people are building chassis frames, welding doors, assembling dash panels and stitching seats.
Garrison is one of the several vitally important "satellites" on which Solihull depends for so much.
----------------------------
Probably the versions not built up at Garrison Street were the pressed type 109"  -  page 103 mentions Rubery Owen, for heavy pressings and chassis items like wheels.  For the 109" chassis  it would have taken large presses such that Rubery Owen had so they probably welded them up.
Page  103 also lists  British Steel Corporation, for sheet steel used in chassis frames and body construction.
----------
Who produced the steel  -  well  in those days it was still 1/2 descent stuff . I was the crane inspector at Consett at 1976 and the Oxy Steel Plant had a scrap bay but in those days Michelin Tyre Co.  would only order steel from Consett (good reputation for quality steel)  so it can't possibly have been stuff from Scunthorpe Works.
The rubbish chassis steel from about 1980  IIRC came from Belgium because there was a outcry from the steel unions regarding these imports, it fell on the deaf ears of Robert MacGreggor and Maggie Thatcher.   By the mid-1980's there were huge scrap exports from the North East to Spain and returned as low grades of finished mild steel.

regards

regards

[mudruffin]

thanks redgr9 i had hoped the steel had come home.

[redgr9]

The steel would have come from a Welch Division strip steel mill - the billet itself could have come from such as  Llanwern, Scunthorpe, Ravenscraig, Lackenby (Teesside) or Consett.

[22900013A]

That looks pretty accurate but the narrow sills appeared in appx may/june 1969, not 1965 as indicated, and the 1 ton used the IIB Fc gearbox and transfer box, not the 101FC gearbox as stated.

[Wittsend]

Thanks Dan,


I've made the update.

 

[Autokaci]

Not the same thing. The G503 site seems to list them by date entered onto the list, not by date of manufacture. It would be quite easy to do a list of vehicles like the G503 site, but it wouldn't tell us much.

The G503 site lists them by whatever one would like to see first...Serial Number, Date of Delivery, Date Entered, Owner's Name, etc...! All you have to do is choose what you want from the first drop down list and the whole list is automatically arranged to your preferance!
The only good thing is that originally jeeps had their Date of Delivery (DOD) stamped in their VIN plate so dating them is more easier!

Jeep data plate:


 

Kaci

[22900013A]

Thanks Dan,


I've made the update.

 

Oh yeah, headlmaps moved into the wings first, I think you put sthe sills as changing earlier. There was a couple of months where they had lamps in wings with deep sills, then by the spring they had narrow sills too.

[redgr9]

That looks pretty accurate but the narrow sills appeared in appx may/june 1969, not 1965 as indicated, and the 1 ton used the IIB Fc gearbox and transfer box, not the 101FC gearbox as stated.

When you get the civilian time line sorted - then it may be possible to get a military timeline more accurate.
My 2A S.W.B.  Rover 10 is Veh. No.   34 ES 12 with date of manuf.  1968.  The Rover 10 is important to me because it is the very last military specification 88" and they were all 12 volt.  However in reality the Rover 10 is two vehicles and they are totally different in looks, to date I have been unable to obtain sufficient Contract Info. to work out when the change over was.
34 ES 12 is the military 2A with combat chassis,deep cills, flat apron,  spare on razor edge bonnet with clips, headlamps within the radiator panel and with the longer front air-lift bumperettes.
I think the change to the the later Rover 10 should have been given a totally different Rover number because it looks so different and IIRC it must have been in 1970 - it was the same vehicle but with narrower cills, rounded apron,military headlamps re-set within the wing front panels, STEEL mesh cross style grille and the front bumperettes were now from the civilian optional catalogue.

To my mind it had the best of everything and was the best looking military Land Rover ever built - still with metal dash and no S3 plastic grille.  I have no idea how many were built but I have come to the conclusion there are none left.  I would like to find one wrecked just to obtain a few bits and the provenance documents - I could then build one up authentic from a S3 donor I have ready and at least it would not be a Walt.
I was in the Royal Signals TA 1998 to 1971 as an ED - I always had rank pulled on me so never did get a later Rover 10 so the only way will be to build my very own.

regards

[22900013A]

Can't say I know that much about military specs but your 1968 should also have a rounded valance panel (apron) as per the later vehicle, but the deep sills and lamps in grille is correct.
My understanding is that when the lamps went into the wings the bumpers also changed as the number plate now had to go above the bumper rather than on the wing front.
I suppose the military number would not have changed as the vehicle only really cnahged in the sills, wings and rad panel, most of the rest would be identical to the 1968 and so not warrant a new mark number.
By the way lamps in wings with shallow sills could have been built from spring 1969 onwards.

I think this is a LWB version of what you mean.

[redgr9]

Yes  -   37 FK 29 looks a good study photo of a very well preserved G.S. example of the L.W.B. version and correct in DBG - the only difference I can see is that the Later Rover 10 would have a razor edge bonnet.  This FK will be dated  1970/71 so is probably in the final contract before the S3 - in fact something special in this condition because IMHO the overall quality set off on the downward slope even with military contracts.  It is interesting to note that this one has the Lightweight type front lifting eyes , possibly it should have the large loop type - uncertain if this is correct ?
I would say you are spot on with the central number plate bracket.
Rare - yes, but there does seen to be a few more of these military transition L.W.B. surviving but AFAIK not one S.W.B. version ?

My earlier  front ended Rover 10 does have the flat apron - I do have the correct one for when I restore it, I have seen a few same age having the flat panel - for some reason PO's seem to want to age their vehicles a bit ?

[22900013A]

Yes  -   37 FK 29 looks a good study photo of a very well preserved G.S. example of the L.W.B. version and correct in DBG - the only difference I can see is that the Later Rover 10 would have a razor edge bonnet.  This FK will be dated  1970/71 so is probably in the final contract before the S3 - in fact something special in this condition because IMHO the overall quality set off on the downward slope even with military contracts.  It is interesting to note that this one has the Lightweight type front lifting eyes , possibly it should have the large loop type - uncertain if this is correct ?
I would say you are spot on with the central number plate bracket.
Rare - yes, but there does seen to be a few more of these military transition L.W.B. surviving but AFAIK not one S.W.B. version ?

My earlier  front ended Rover 10 does have the flat apron - I do have the correct one for when I restore it, I have seen a few same age having the flat panel - for some reason PO's seem to want to age their vehicles a bit ?

he razor edge bonnet was of course the standard fitment on SWB models in the time you are talking about, in fact it didn't disapear until the late 1970s and was still seen on quite a few SWB series IIIs.

I understand the military were still getting IIAs into 1972, were these both wheelbases or just long?

[redgr9]

The 88" military CL's all had the De-Luxe bonnet because they wanted the tub space free.
I don't know anything about the very last 2A  88" military contracts but IIRC they very last were RAF but they were on their own registration plates so you could never date them like the Army vehicles.
I keep picking up little bits of the jigsaw of these very last Rover 10's but there is little info. available, the TA at this time had little interest in the Rover 10's as every body wanted to drive the new Landra Jeeps.

regards

[fordlltwm]

April C G C B Front cover no studs for water pump, diesel engines.
C H C B Front cover no studs for water pump, petrol engines.


Now confused, what did they change to and from, since I fitted a 64 with a S3 water pump and it was all the same? different shape end, flat on two sides instead of round (64). But apart from that ?

[crashbox]

Looks as though we can add one bit of detail to the "proper" Series 2 model; changeover from turn knob to serrated quadrant type vent flap levers. May 1960, 88" chassis numbers approximately 141003600, 109" numbers unconfirmed.

[V8Nick]

Excellent work there to all concerned.

Just one little detail...

the narrow sills appeared in appx may/june 1969, not 1965 as indicated,

Looks like the 1969 detail has been added, but the 1965 note is still there, making it look like LR changed from 5" to 3" sills twice!

Once again, Great job!

[Mark Rumsey 00623]

Just had a look at this for the first time in ages and I think I can add some more detail, or at least make some things clearer.

At launch, the 88" model used the 2 litre petrol whilst the 109" used the new 2.25 litre petrol engine (developed from the 2 litre diesel). The 2 litre diesel was available in both wheelbases. The models available at launch were the utility models (truck cab, hard top, full tilt and no roof at all) in both wheelbases, or the station wagon in 88" form only. The Series 1 107" station wagon remained in production to serve those needing the larger passenger vehicle.

September 1958 (start of the 1959 model year) saw the introduction (or at least the start of production) of the 109" Series 2 station wagon with the 2.25 petrol engine. The 2 litre diesel was available in export models, but was not offered on the home market. The Series 1 107" station wagon was withdrawn at the same time. Coinciding with this, the 88" models changed from the 2 litre petrol to the 2.25 engine. Also, the dash warning lights changed from the Series 1 brass bezel type (usually painted black) to a new plastic unit.

Sometime close to the start of the 1960 model year (September 1959), but not sure when the wing fixings on the bulkhead changed from captive nuts and bolts to spire clips with special screws. Also around the same time, the front lights changed from Sparto to Lucas and the rear stop & tail light changed from Sparto to Lucas with an integral reflector, but the separate reflector changed. It should be noted that these are the usual light fitments, but variations occurred on both manufacturer and type across the entire production run depending on what was available on the production line at the time. The badges also changed from Birmingham to Solihull around the same time. Other changes included a new shorter all alloy flat apron panel in place of the original long alloy and galvanised steel panel, allowing double bumpers or lifting rings to be fitted. Vent control brackets and steering support also changed from bare galvanised steel to black painted (still trying to get this positively confirmed - most vehicles I've checked line up with this).

Towards the end of the 1960 model year (probably around June/July but could be earlier) new lever type vent controls (in place of the twist knob type), steering wheel mounted horn push (in place of side mounted) and column stalk indicator switch (in place of dash mouned switch) were phased in. This was not an outright change and for a period there were crossover models that had some features but not others so that virtually all possible combinations of old and new left the factory. These changes were probably intended for the 1961 model, but were probably introduced early due to demand and low stocks of the old type. Mechanical changes were also made in the engine bay. The thermostat changed (on both petrol and diesel engines) from the odd looking AC TD4 with its one piece thermostat housing to a newer simpler design with a three piece housing. The exhaust on the petrol also changed from the old 'swan neck' wing exit to a more conventional, but more vulnerable and harder to install 'drop down' system. The new manifold kept the inlet manifold heat control flap from the older manifold.

Indicators were NOT made standard in 1961. They remained an optional extra until 1967 when the 'black dash' model was introduced, but in 1961 it became one of those options that was almost (but not quite) always fitted. The official position for factory fit flashing indicators was always in the pressed out wing hole with the sidelight moving either inwards (civvy models in the UK) or downwards (military models and all Austrailain models) to make room. Flashing sidelights were never (as far as I know) offered by the factory. However, they were offered as after market kits, as were flashing amber indicators, along with a wide variety of switches, and althought the front indicators were usually fitted as per the factory (with the sidelights moving out of the way) this was not always the case and the front indicators have often been fitted inboard or beneath the sidelights (giving a reverse layout to the standard arrangement) or sometimes somewhere totally different, like the bottom of the wings.

The warning lamp colours never changed during the production run. The charge light has always been red, the oil light green and the cold start (choke or glow plug) always amber. For the Series 2 and A suffix 2A the charge light was in the top centre of the dash, with the oil light bottom left and the charge light bottom right. From the suffix B 2A (about 1963) the charge and oil lights swapped places. The word 'OIL' was added to the warning lamp sometime during 1961.

Up to and including the 1960 model year the chassis plate was usually red, and from 1961 onwards usually black. However, some instances of earlier black and later red plates are known, with red plates sometimes being fitted well into Series 2A production.

At the launch of the suffix A 2A there were only four changes. 1) The 2 litre diesel engine was replaced by a new 2.25 litre unit. This new engine was based on the 2.25 petrol and shared the same direct bored block (the 2 litre had replacable wet liners). The engine also borrowed heavily from the aborted multifuel engine project making it not only considerably more powerful than the outgoing 2 litre, but also quieter, more refined, more efficient and giving it a wider rev range. 2) The 2.25 petrol engine was heavily revised to take advantage of improvements made during the diesel engine development. These included larger big end bearings with matching rods and crankshaft, a relocated water pump that allowed a larger fan to be fitted without fouling the starting handle, which in turn required a new cylinder head with a shallow thermostat pocket in place of the older deep pocket head, along with detail improvements to the rocker gear and distributor drive. 3) The front axle was reworked with Railko to bushes in place of the old cone bushes and the steering arms moved to the bottom of the swivel for extra strength. Some very early 2A models did get the older style axle as stock levels were run down. 4) The fuse box gained an extra fuse bringing the total to 2 fuses, but since this new fuse was for the interior light which was only fitted to a few models, the fuse was rarely used!

I'll leave it there for now as there are quite a few other bits I can see in later years that don't look right to me.

[58paul]

Nice informative piece there Mark!

One thing that stands out there for me is the axle quote

3) The front axle was reworked with Railko to bushes in place of the old cone bushes and the steering arms moved to the bottom of the swivel for extra strength. Some very early 2A models did get the older style axle as stock levels were run down.

Is this confirmed, that all series 2's had the top mounted drop arms?

I have a August 1961 88'' late series 2, it has the drop arms mounted at the bottom, its the original axle and the vehicle itself is very original...

It is however a ex 'rover engineering dept' vehicle   

I know it was converted by the factory from a soft top basic to a full on station wagon, fully trimmed, wonder if it was used to trial some parts then as per the hubs? It also had/has a unique 'state review grille' fitted as some stage also.

[redgr9]

My Rover 10  (about 1967) has strange axles - bottom mounted drop arms, Oil filler plugs on the hubs but the diff pinion seal gland assembly seems to be Series 1.  I did a bit of research into these axles and had to borrow a Series 1 Parts Book - could be  military recon. axles but the strange thing is the person I borrowed the parts book off has a S2 with exactly the same axle specifications.  I have the blue backed S2 Service Manuals Part 1 and Part 2 and there is no mention of these axles so I assume they are a S1 specification or at least the differential units are.
Both diffs have a load of backlash on and if possible I would like to recondition and keep these axles and diffs together when I rebuild on a new chassis if they were an original item   

[Mark Rumsey 00623]

Paul, if your Land Rover was ex-factory, it could have been used as a 'mule' to test various 2A prototype or pre-production parts before they were released to the masses. Also, if it was built in August 1961 its an odd one as the factory was closed every August (for the whole month) for refitting. That would mean it would probably have been hand built using whatever was about, which would have been mostly from the remaining stock of Series 2 parts, but may have included some Series 2A parts from the new stocks being gathered for the start of 2A production in the September.

Red, your description sounds pretty normal for a 1967 Land Rover to me. Bottom arms and Railko bushes were introduced in late 1961 at the start of Series 2A production (or very shortly after), the oil filled hubs were only replaced by grease packed bearings in 1966, and undoubtedly some late 1966/early 1967 axles used the earlier drive members with oil fillers, and the removable alloy diff pinion oil seal carrier remained in production right up to early 1971 when the seal carrier was integrated into the diff casing for the suffix H models.